Review of The Alternative Classical Concert

Xanthippe · Post by **Xanthippe** » Sat Aug 24, 2002 7:17 pm

This is my final say in this discussion:

I hear clear differences between these particular pop numbers and other the same numbers at other live performances. I also use my own Vanessa-Mae concert impressions and experiences in this. You can hear it from the way she handled and touches the strings on her violin.

Topic is closed for me. I won't react to remarks and questions anymore!

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Sat Aug 24, 2002 8:12 pm

I must be stupid, cuz i dont understand what u just said...can someone say it to me so that i understand it please.

YouTube · Post by **Benji** » Sat Aug 24, 2002 9:15 pm

arup75 wrote:Haidee, could you close this topic?

NO

This is precisely why I left the board in the first place. There's NOTHING in this thread that can justify it being closed. No one has called anyone any names or crossed the line in any such matter.

There will always be debates and disagreements. The day that there is no debate or disagreement, is the day that this forum no longer has a use except provide updated information on Vanessa (which her site already does).

In case you have noticed Arup, this debate is actually different from the one that happened back in April. Back in April, the debate was about Vanessa miming, whether it's a good or bad thing. That's not the case here, the case here was whether she mimed in this particular concert. Yes, Rijko disagrees, but that is not reason enough to close this thread.

If this thread closes, I'm gone ..

I'm out

--Benjamin

Xanthippe · Post by **Xanthippe** » Sat Aug 24, 2002 9:21 pm

I agree with Benjamin. There is no reason whatsoever to close this topic. We had a good debate. The only thing is that we disagree. There is nothing wrong with that.

Jeliefish · Post by **Jeliefish** » Sat Aug 24, 2002 10:56 pm

I absolutely agree w/ Benji and Rijko. It's a topic such as this that makes this forum interesting. I don't play violin and has very little knowledge about music. By reading the discussion, I learn to notice little things in V-mae's music that I never paid attention to before. Benji mentioned that he would ask V-mae herself about this issue. I'm sure that she'd be glad to clarify it. To me, if V-mae did mime, I'm sure she had good reasons, if she didn't, it's great. No matter what, I still love her!

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Sun Aug 25, 2002 12:43 am

eva03 · Post by **eva03** » Sun Aug 25, 2002 10:54 am

why do you think vanessa-mae mimes in the pop pieces when in fact these are easier than the classical?

YouTube · Post by **Benji** » Sun Aug 25, 2002 2:32 pm

eva03 wrote:why do you think vanessa-mae mimes in the pop pieces when in fact these are easier than the classical?

One of the easiest ways to tell that she mimed the pop pieces is to pay attention to how the violin sounds. The first pop piece she did was Toccata and Fugue. You can tell that the violin being heard is acoustic, not electric. In fact, for comparison's sake, go back to the original recording of Toccata and Fugue (which was done with her acoustic violin) and compare it to the one being heard in this concert. They sound identical.

If that's not proof enough, then notice how the "sound" of the violin changes in between the 3 pop pieces. Do this: Play Toccata and Fugue and Classical Gas, switching back and forth between the two, and you can hear that the sounds and tone are totally different. If she was live, then there wouldn't be any difference in violin sound or tone, no matter what piece she plays. Better yet, compare the sound of the violin in Toccata and Fugue, and the sound violin heard in the Red Hot performance. The difference is huge.

But even if all I say is true, the question you ask is still viable: Why would she mime pieces that should be easy for her to play, especially given that here entire band is live. I have no answer for that. Maybe there's a lot more to setting up an electric violin then we thought, and Vanessa wasn't satisfied with the sound. Remember also that this concert was being televised, so she would want the best sound possible for her pop pieces, which would make sense to use pre-recorded studio tracks (Toccata and Fugue/Classical Gas) or pre-recorded live tracks from past concerts (Red Hot .. from the Live in Berlin video).

--Benjamin

Xanthippe · Post by **Xanthippe** » Sun Aug 25, 2002 3:15 pm

Benjamin's argumentation using the differents sounds of the electric violin as proof for miming is not correct. The amplifier and the electric part of the violin makes it very well possible to create changes in sound within one concert. The sound can very well change from almost acoustic like to a more whirring electric sound.

I saw Vanessa-Mae in an interview once on Dutch tv and she explained about how the violin works. With this equipment she can create sounds of all possible instruments. I have seen this happen several times during her concerts that I attended. Especially during the STC concerts, Vanessa-Mae uses this capability to create all kinds of effects.

In the summer of 2001, I was at her open air concert in Zurich and I was so lucky to be present seeing Vanessa-Mae do the sound check for her violins and singing (read my review in this board also) the afternoon before the concert. She was experimenting with some effects and she became irritated that it didn't work as good as she planned.

Kevin · Post by **Kevin** » Sun Aug 25, 2002 4:49 pm

Rijko,

I myself am very familiar with the different effects processors. I have used a guitar effects proccessor that allows me to become any instrument/effect/or sound i want. also I am familiar with amplification, but the Zeta violins because of their pickup systems DO sound relatively the same in ANY performing environment or when plugged in through ANY amplification system.

Also the majority of effects processors do not work through a wireless transmitter system, unless the amplification system is near on stage.

And if this were the case that she was using an effects machine of some sort, why would she need to change between the effects of an accoustic violin in the Fugue?

Not taking sides in this, just noting what is accurate of this particular performance.

Xanthippe · Post by **Xanthippe** » Sun Aug 25, 2002 5:05 pm

Kevin,

I appreciate your input in the discussion very much, but I haven't read anything from you, nor from Benjamin that could possible make me change my mind on this miming issue.

YouTube · Post by **Benji** » Sun Aug 25, 2002 7:32 pm

Rijko Ebens wrote:Benjamin's argumentation using the differents sounds of the electric violin as proof for miming is not correct. The amplifier and the electric part of the violin makes it very well possible to create changes in sound within one concert. The sound can very well change from almost acoustic like to a more whirring electric sound.

I saw Vanessa-Mae in an interview once on Dutch tv and she explained about how the violin works. With this equipment she can create sounds of all possible instruments. I have seen this happen several times during her concerts that I attended. Especially during the STC concerts, Vanessa-Mae uses this capability to create all kinds of effects.

In the summer of 2001, I was at her open air concert in Zurich and I was so lucky to be present seeing Vanessa-Mae do the sound check for her violins and singing (read my review in this board also) the afternoon before the concert. She was experimenting with some effects and she became irritated that it didn't work as good as she planned.

By your own admission, you see that it takes it work and preparation to establish a sound that Vanessa likes. So are you telling me that in a span of 3-8 seconds (the 3 pop pieces ran together almost without interruption), the sound producers were able to change the sound of her electric violin to a sound that she likes? No, that's impossible.

I still stand by my original statement that when she's playing live on her ZETA, the sound is constant throughout. Where's my proof? Take a look at the Red Hot tour video. Did you notice how the electric violin never changes its sound or tone throughout the concert? I also have other live concerts, like the one in Beijing .. Once again, the ZETA's sound never changes throughout. The same for the Bangkok performance back in late '96.

But the changes in the violin sound wasn't the only proof I had when she was miming. I watched her fingerings/bowings/vibrato .. and there were times where it didn't match what was being heard.. And no .. this isn't due to audio/video desynch because if that was the case, the entire band would be off, which they weren't.

Rijko, what worries me is that there are two violinists (me and Kevin) telling you how a violin (electric and acoustic) works, and yet we're wrong? It makes me wonder if it's not so much that Vanessa plays live or not, but rather you just coming to the conclusion that she played live because that's what you want to believe, even when there's evidence to the contrary. It just goes back to the one debate we had about the Dubai concert, when I pointed out that Vanessa mimed Storm. You vehemently denied it, and insisted she played live. However, when the video clip was made available showing Vanessa not playing even when there was a violin being heard (she was caught off guard), you still insisted that it had to be an audio/video desynch problem (if it was, then how her band in sync with the music, and how come Vanessa-Mae quickly catches up with the music?).

--Benjamin

Xanthippe · Post by **Xanthippe** » Sun Aug 25, 2002 8:14 pm

Well you know it seems to me that you both just want to say that she mimes!!

It is obvious that you have never been to one of her concerts. Vanerssa-Mae receives standing ovations for many minutes at every concert after each finished piece of music. There is plenty of time. Morover, all these type of things are arranged automatically via computers and so on.

Don't come with me with so called authority because you can play a on a violin. That is a very old trick in discusssions to claim authority and claim from that that the other debater simply has to agree with you based on that. That doesn't work with me!! My opinion is based on what I hear and see, added to a lot of concert experiences varying from pop, jazz to classical music, including concerts of Vanessa-Mae. My opinion is just as good as yours. Please take very good notice of that.

I specifically said in several of our discusions that I respect your opinion, although I do not agree with you. You have never showed the same courtesy towards my opinion.

For me a discussion stops the moment my oponent shows an attitude of superiority towards me and doesn't treat my feelings and opinions as being equal towards his own. For me a discussion has to be fun and an exchange of ideas and arguments. Otherwise I would be active in politics!!

Benjamin, it is not always necessary to win a debate and get your right. Just let another (me!!) have his ideas!

End of discusion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Xanthippe · Post by **Xanthippe** » Sun Aug 25, 2002 8:27 pm

One final addition with respect to the Dubai concert. Search in the old forum for my explaniation after seeing the Dubai files.

Benjamin, have you ever taken any notice of my arguments.

Yes, I get a little irritated when I feel that my opinion is not being taken seriously. I sincerly apologise for that; I can't help it since it is my nature.

So let's stop with this discusion: it is leading us nowhere.

YouTube · Post by **Benji** » Sun Aug 25, 2002 9:01 pm

Rijko Ebens wrote:

Well you know it seems to me that you both just want to say that she mimes!!

No, I've never said that she mimes all the time. Take a look at some of the concerts I reviewed in the past (well on second thought, you might not be able to since the old board is now inaccessible). I also want to reiterate that I have Beijing and Bangkok concerts in which she played live.

It is obvious that you have never been to one of her concerts. Vanerssa-Mae receives standing ovations for many minutes at every concert after each finished piece of music. There is plenty of time. Morover, all these type of things are arranged automatically via computers and so on.

Actually, it's not automatic. Here is where the problem lies. You're making an assumption on how something is done, even though you've never done it yourself. I think Kevin did a good job of explaining the mechanics of amplification and sound editing when it comes to electric violins.

Don't come with me with so called authority because you can play a on a violin. That is a very old trick in discusssions to claim authority and claim from that that the other debater simply has to agree with you based on that. That doesn't work with me!! My opinion is based on what I hear and see, added to a lot of concert experiences varying from pop, jazz to classical music, including concerts of Vanessa-Mae. My opinion is just as good as yours. Please take very good notice of that.

No, it has nothing to do with "authority" but rather just "know how." A simple example of this is if you heard two different medical opinions about blood from two different people. Now one person, is an observer who comes to the hospital routinely to view surgeries and other medical practices. The other person is a doctor who specializes in the field of hemotology. Which opinion would you pay attention to more? Obviously, the Hematologist. It's no different here. Kevin has a ZETA, and has performed it in live settings. So he probably knows more about how it works then either you or I. It doesn't mean he's "better" then you or anything like that. It's simply acknowledging that there are people who knows more about certain subjects then you do.

I specifically said in several of our discusions that I respect your opinion, although I do not agree with you. You have never showed the same courtesy towards my opinion.

Show me where I've shown disrespect in regards to your opinion.

For me a discussion stops the moment my oponent shows an attitude of superiority towards me and doesn't treat my feelings and opinions as being equal towards his own. For me a discussion has to be fun and an exchange of ideas and arguments. Otherwise I would be active in politics!!

Actually, I can turn the tables and accuse you of the same thing. I can say that you've shown that "attitude of superiority" towards me by constantly reminding me that I've never attended a Vanessa-Mae concert, but you have. Yes, you're right, a discussion is fun when there's an exchange of ideas and arguments. However, doing so means that you have to have an open mind, and not just set on one point of view. You've basically decided that since Vanessa-Mae said that she performs live in all paid concerts she performs at, anything else is irrelevant, no matter what. That's not keeping an open mind.

Benjamin, it is not always necessary to win a debate and get your right. Just let another (me!!) have his ideas!

It's not about winning the debate, the only thing I was *hoping* to come of this was for you to open your mind to all possibilities, no matter if you like those possibilities or not.

--Benjamin[/color]